Received this response from Hasbro tonight. Here's the original email trail:
Dear Jennifer,
We
wanted to get back to you since our email did not fully answer your
daughter’s questions. We love to hear from all of our consumers,
especially children, so we hope this response will help clear up any
questions.
Dear R____,
We
agree that girls are equally as important as boys and want both boys
and girls to have fun playing our games. When you play the Guess Who?
game, you have the same chance of winning the game whether you picked a
card with boy or a card with a girl.
We
love your suggestion of adding more female characters to the game and
we are certainly considering it for the future. In the meantime, you
will be pleased to know that we have additional character sheets that we
can send out to you in the post if you ask your mum to send us your
postal address. Alternatively, you can visit http://www.hasbro.com/games/
We hope your mum does not throw out your Guess Who game!
Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.
Kind Regards,
Hasbro Consumer Affairs
Hasbro UK Ltd
Hmmm... something tells me they have been watching this unfold on twitter...
ReplyDeleteIm with you.
DeleteHa ha I Love this! Hasbro's email included everything but that little small word 'sorry'.
ReplyDelete
Delete"Hasbro's email included everything but that little small word 'sorry'."
Sorry seems to be the hardest word (Elton John song).
Here Here!
DeleteThe tone of this email is so much better - pity we didn't get it first time round, but better late than never.
ReplyDeleteI still don't see how you have the same chance of winning whether you choose a male or female character (especially since that's the first thing most children ask.)
Also, if the sports character card manages to be 50-50 boys and girls without ruining the game dynamic, then why not just apply that across the board?
Anyway, it's great to get a response like this.
The assumption is most likely that the character is to be chosen at random (I'm not sure if that's actually a rule or not). Also, I can't speak for the 50-50 split on the sports cards -- it seems to be like it would be a bad idea unless gender were an illegal question.
DeleteEvery other distinguishing feature in the game also has the same split, so (again, if the character is chosen at random) asking about gender first should confer absolutely no advantage. If the gender were split 50-50, asking about gender first is a huge advantage if people are playing the game correctly.
Consider this:
If it's a 50/50 split, no matter what, asking about gender eliminates exactly half the board.
If it's an 80/20 split, asking about gender eliminates 80% of the board 20% of the time, but only 20% of the board the other 80% of the time. On average, if the character is chosen randomly, asking about gender first eliminates 32% of the board if the characters are split 80/20. A 50/50 split makes the question far more advantageous.
The lesson to be learned here isn't "don't pick a girl", it's "don't play in a predictable way by picking a character with the same characteristic every time". If you play logically and choose the character at random, you've eliminated your opponent's advantage that they would get from guessing which character you would pick.
Right because little children play games according to statistical advantages.
DeleteUm, anonymous, I think your math may be a little off.
Delete"If it's an 80/20 split, asking about gender eliminates 80% of the board 20% of the time, but only 20% of the board the other 80% of the time. "
The selection of gender is still based on the same 50/50 odds, therefore half of the time 20% of the board would be eliminated, and the other half of the time, 80% of the board would be eliminated.
@salyabyum, The selection of gender isn't 50/50 odds if you are selecting a character at random.
DeleteThe issue here is that in their original te sponsor the company said that each characteristic is represented in te game five times. So, being female is a characteristic while being male is not. Anybody arguing a point about statistics is missing te larger issue, which is that males are regarded as people And women as some subset. This is hugely problematic and children absolutely pick up on it.
DeleteSorry, that should say: in their original letter the company...
DeleteI would argue the same about being a person of color, if the characters are anything like they were when I was a child - overwhelming white.
DeleteTo win you need to guess the other player's card before they do.
DeleteSo for a start, what the other player picks and how quickly you can guess it is always going to affect the result.
I guess that if you are highly predictable and always choose a girl, you are at a disadvantage because the other player doesn't need to spend a turn asking what gender you are.
But if the first question is "are you a girl?", you have just as much chance of asking a question that will knock out 80% of the characters.
It should be said though, that an early lead does not always equate to a win.
The problem is not about picking a girl, it's about *always* picking a girl.
If instead you prioritise gameplay over roleplay, and choose from all available options, your opponent cannot make assumptions and will have the same odds.
The sports character card presumably doesn't use gender as an 80/20 characteristic because it has instead got sports-related characteristics, eg "Do you have a ball?"
And perhaps because the character sheets work like all good game expansions and change the gameplay around. Perhaps even break the gameplay. They may be gender-balanced, but they might be an inferior game experience.
In the standard game that's purely about heads, I really don't see what the problem is with the dominant gender characteristic being the one that can be have the most variety of facial hair characteristics.
I do see that Hasbro could have explained this a bit better, and avoided the misreadings that followed, but at the end of the day equality is not about equal numbers but equal chances. Girls are represented in Guess Who. Girls can win Guess Who.
You people are all crazy. It is a board game for children. Move on with your lives.
Delete"It is not only boys who are important, girls are important too." The disparity in the numbers leaves this little girl (and many others of us) feeling less important. Bravo to this 6 year old!
DeleteYes, you people are crazy to argue this case against the little girls claim. The child IS right!!! Get a life you idiots, let me "guess", you all either have to be right all the time even though you know you are wrong, or you just need to have the last word.... Ridiculous!
DeleteBravo to the child & her Mum!!!!
It's just not true that you get the same chance of winning whether you pick a male or female, in the original game. I'd like to see the science that supports that, because my observations, as mother to a boy and a girl, do not. It's the most obvious difference to most children.
ReplyDeleteI understand that there are other questions that can be asked that can improve chances of winning if answered in the positive: Do they wear glasses? or Do they wear a hat?, but these aren't usually the first questions asked. The game encourages our smart girls not to chose a female because that puts them in a position where they'll lose.
"The game encourages our smart girls not to chose a female because that puts them in a position where they'll lose."
DeleteMy thoughts when reading that: "... just like in the real world, where women are often expected to be the ones to adapt to be more like men, in order to land a job, get promoted, ..."
Sad reflection of reality, indeed. Hopefully, if enough of the implicit effects of games like these change, our society will eventually change, too.
You have an equal chance of winning assuming that the initial characters are drawn at random (which, as far as I can remember, is how the game is played). If you ask, "are they female?", then there's a 5/24 chance you'll eliminate 19 characters, and a 19/24 chance you'll eliminate 5 characters. The expected eliminations are 19 × 5/24 and 5 × 19/24, which are both equal; the average number of characters eliminated is 3 23/24 in either case.
ReplyDeleteIf you hand-pick a character (which, one could argue, is a form of cheating), then you give your opponent an advantage. Glasses wearers may tend to prefer characters with glasses, for example, and if the other player picks up on this then you're going to lose more often than not.
Hi Peter
DeleteIn the version we have, you choose your character by moving a slider along a row of faces, so there is no option to do it randomly.
Jennifer
Sounds like they wanted to prevent cards from getting lost down the back of the sofa and/or reduce production costs, but didn't consider how it would affect gameplay. Sloppy.
DeleteRemoving the cards meant that you could slide in whole sheets of characters.
DeleteYes, it would be better if they numbered them and either included a 24-sided die or a set of numbered cards.
The "choose yourself" rule also means that both characters could choose the same person - not possible in classic Guess Who, which meant it was a useful additional piece of information.
if you are the holder of the female card then after this first elimination of male or female then surely Youre disadvantaged. As its 1 out of 5 then not 1 out of 19? Think this is great. They should take a leaf out of sainsburys book with giraffe bread.
ReplyDeleteThat's how the game works. If the first question asked is "are they wearing glasses" and your character is wearing glasses then you're in the same boat.
Deleteyes, but wearing glasses and being female is not the same thing. And children that age generally want their own gender to represent them in games. And if female children play this game regularly and chooses the girl card, they have very slim chances of winning. For a game that is made for children, and 50% of all children are female, that is kind of crappy. It is how the game works, yes, but it is still crappy gameplay and these parents want to change that.
Delete"We hope your mum does not throw out your Guess Who game!"
ReplyDeleteWow talk about passive aggressive digs.
And they didn't even answer your question, just denied their privilege like 'There's nothing wrong with this!'
My first thought too!!
DeleteYet again another example how patriachy informs, rules and demeans all aspects of humankind.
ReplyDelete"We hope your mum does not throw out your Guess Who game!"
ReplyDeleteWow talk about passive aggressive digs.
THIS. Sooooo this.
Aside from how the game play is affected, it is distressing as a girl to see so few female characters in all forms of entertainment/culture/media. The little girl is getting the message that girls are not as important as boys. She says so in her own words. This is the real issue. She would be right to protest even if game play was not affected at all.
ReplyDeleteHave you thought about starting a Change.org petition? People are changing the world with those.
ReplyDeleteHasbro takes the only action it knows how... New for 2013, "Guess Who? for Girls". In pink of course. Focused on shopping and make up.
ReplyDeleteGreat work. I second the idea to start a Change.org petition.
ReplyDeleteJust for fun, I examined the other character sheets.
Dinosaurs and Littlest Pet Shop are not coded for gender.
"Kooky Creatures" is an epic fail of imagination—why did they feel the need to code kooky creatures with gender? Big gender disparity again, though: there are seven creatures explicitly coded as female, and 17 as male.
GI Joe, unsurprisingly, has the worst of the gender disparity—4 women, 20 men.
The Easter sheet is interesting. Not all the bunnies are coded for gender, which is welcome. Some of the names are gendered, but male and female bunnies are not drawn differently (except that pink and purple bunnies are disproportionately female and blue and yellow are disproportionately male). By my count, I have 6 male, 9 female, 9 ungendered. (That's probably being generous—"Dash" and "Chip" are probably intended to be male, for example.)
I played this game as a child, and had the very same concerns as your daughter. Over twenty years later, it appears that they are still only 'considering' adding more female characters. Pathetic.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I am delighted in your collaborative response with your daughter. The world needs more like you. Thank-you. :)
Folks, it doesn't matter whether you ask "are you a girl" first or last.
ReplyDeleteThere are only twelve ways the faces differ in this game:
1) gender
2) race
3) glasses
4) mustache
5) beard
6) white hair
7) blonde hair
8) red hair
9) brown hair
10) bald
11) black hair
12) hat
For the game to work, each character has to be unique across each of these dimensions. Hence, 12 x 2, 24 characters. Plainly, it doesn't matter the order in which you ask about these twelve characteristics.
Could you design the game with 12 men and 12 women? I could see that being a tricky problem. You'd have to change the facial characteristics if you want every potential choice to have an equal chance of winning. Not sure how to do that.
Lets say I ask if my opponents card is female. They say yes, games praticaly over.
DeleteSame with asking if they have a beard. Unless all of the new female characters are bearded ladies.
DeletePeople. Let me resolve your confusion.
ReplyDeleteAll the faces have 5 characteristics. (For some strange reason, being female is considered a characteristic, but let's let that one go for now.)
Choosing a girl doesn't make you any more likely to lose than choosing someone with glasses, or with facial hair, etc., because it is just 1 of the 5 characteristics, which are all roughly equally common.
On the other hand, if you are playing with someone whose first question is going to be "are you a girl" (i.e. every single person who plays guess who) then it is a definite disadvantage.
Hasbro is correct in a statistical sense, but totally wrong in terms of how people actually play the game. The correct response should be, "you're totally right, and from now on we're going to make half the faces girls."
That's not really the correct response, because it breaks the game.
DeleteThere's a problem with game balance when half the cards are female and half are male. Each characteristic is repeated five times so if you ask any given question it only effects those five cards. If your character DOES have a mustache, or glasses, or is a girl when that question is asked, you are likely to lose. You're safe if your character does not have one of those characteristics.
Splitting the board 50/50 creates a question that automatically halves the number of possible choices. There's no way for "Are you girl/boy?" to be a bad question; it would ALWAYS cut the choices in half.
From what I remember from Guess Who, there's only a few fair ways to change this with proper balance:
- Split the genders in 50/50 and remove "Are you a girl/boy?" from askable questions.
- Remove gender entirely; use monsters, aliens, etc.
- Have two different sets of characters; one all boys, one all girls. Each set would have an equal number of characteristics, that would probablyhave to be different between the genders (as it seems a lot less likely you'd want five women with mustaches, five women with beards, etc.). Or all characteristics would have to be gender neutral.
What percentage 6 year old girls will choose to be a girl?
DeleteIf a boy is playing against a girl and he knows based on the answer to that question that she is likely to pick a girl, he will be able to get rid of 80% of the board right off the bat.
So what does this tell the little girl? That she should play to win, not to role play. Therefore she shouldn't pick a girl. Since as far as her understanding of statistics go, girls always lose.
Way to go Hasbro.
It is a game! I highly doubt your daughter was that offended, if she were, you will have problems in her teenage years.
ReplyDeleteBesides, with men they can make the character bald, facial hair, no facial hair, etc way more differences can happen to a man's face than a woman's
Why, because men can look like whatever they want and women will always have to be "pretty"? And "trouble"? You mean thinking for her damn self instead of being told to sit down, shut up, and be a good girl? My, what a miserable parent you'd make.
DeleteHis point was clearly that in the context of the game, the differentiators are such that there is a wider variety of male characters than female - you'd need to include bearded ladies and bald women for there to be gender equality in this particular game, I'm afraid.
Delete
Delete"Besides, with men they can make the character bald, facial hair, no facial hair, etc way more differences can happen to a man's face than a woman's"
Correct. On the other hand, who (persons of which sex) are most likely to wear jewelery?
In further corresponded not yet posted by Ms. O'Connell, Hasbro officials were quoted as saying:
ReplyDelete"While we agree that 'girls are important', R____ should tell her 'mum' that if her miserable little prig of a daughter doesn't stop being so annoying, none of the boys in her school will take her to the movies a few years from now. As toymakers interested in the welfare of children of all genders, we are concerned that if R___ doesn't knock it the f*ck off, her life will be utterly devoid of happiness, much like the life of her 37-years-of-age, educated-to-a-Masters-level mum.
As a token of Hasbro's sensitivity and concern, please enjoy our MARVEL THE AVENGERS Shatterblaster IRON MAN figure and, because some combat zones are too hot, even for IRON MAN, a full set of Iron Man Power Assault Armor."
Real classy "Anonymous". People like you are the reason few females go into Science, Math, Engineering, and Technology fields, why they get paid less when performing the EXACT same job, and are held to different standards in terms of looks among other things. I applaud this girl - it is not a matter of statistics, it is a matter of gender equality and how females are treated. I needs to be changed.
Delete"I'm not hurt by this issue, so I'm going to go out of my way to be an ass about it because it's really important to me that everyone knows just how lucky I am to not have this affect me. My shitfits are more important than a 6 year old girl standing up for herself."
DeleteWhat a wonderful, bright, articulate daughter you have. You must be very proud of her. Thank you for sharing your story. Hopefully it will make some people think a little harder about these things.
ReplyDeleteI cant believe this lady has time to write this article. She should be making dinner and doing the dishes. Her daughter should be getting her father his slippers and a cold beer.
ReplyDeleteOh, did you not notice? The site name is "byjenniferoconnell.com." One might call into question your statement that you can't believe that Jennifer O'Connell would have time to write an article for a site that she started with a name that makes clear she will be publishing text on it. Perhaps if you had read this at the top: "I am a freelance journalist who writes a weekly column on Wednesdays for The Irish Times, and regularly features in Image Magazine, Irish Tatler and the Evening Herald," then I would absolutely believe "I can't believe this lady had time to write this article... when she has so many other entities to write for!" As it stands... I shudder to imagine you interacting with women in real life. Yuck. Man to man, you don't deserve a woman.
DeleteThe problem here is that "girls suck" relative to boys in the game. It could easily be the other way around, to protect at-risk groups in the population.
ReplyDeleteOne of the alternatives always is at a disadvantage, and that option sucks. For example, every time the question of facial hair is asked, the five with it are at disadvantages (and therefore suck to have when that question is asked). Sure, all characters suck "equally", as they all have the same number of "minority traits."
However, using traits like race or sex and having one option "suck" relative to the others is problematic, especially when those groups have been traditionally underrepresented or mistreated.
Easy solution? Just make it 80% women, and 80% minorities, and you now make white men the sucky option when the question of race/sex is asked. The math works out the same, and no at-risk groups are placesd in the suck zone.
EXACTLY what I was thinking.
DeleteJennifer, I applaud you and your daughter for taking ths initiative! As for those concerned that making 50% of the characters women, would "break" the game because women don't have facial hair -and your comments are well-received, but parhaps misguided. Women don't all look the same, and there are many different distinguishing characteristics between women. Perhaps most of all, your comments seem to miss the point. Male is not the default sex, and young children should not have to earn a degree in statistics before they understand that the way women are represented in Guess Who is "nothing personal." Bottom line- Hasbro should have apologized and they should try harder to make games that don't discriminate. This goes with people of color as well, if the game looks like it did when i was a kid.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Jennifer - im interested in reading the first emails in this exchange, but it looks like they have been removed from the blog. Are we able to read them someplace?
ReplyDeleteI just had to chime in here, but I did not read all of the posts. :( It is late, and I have just found this.
ReplyDeleteWhat a shame that was overlooked when the game was made. You cannot possibly have the same chance of winning if you pick a female character, as only five will remain if the answer is, "yes," when asked if you are a girl.
I do think that calling the game, "sexist,' is not quite accurate. Why not call battleship sexist as well? I remember seeing only boys playing that in the pictures on the box when I was growing up.
I do think they should have responded to the young lady in a fashion she could understand in the first letter, but at least they made up for that in the second. :)
As for changing the characters in the game, they should offer several different sets with the game, all cut out and ready to go. Maybe two of them could be all of a single gender, one could be 1/2 and 1/2, and the other could be classic. That would be a fairly good way to please everyone.
A little long, I am sorry, but I just felt the need to throw in a few pennies here. I am a single father, of one little lady, and I pay attention the messages I am sending her with the things I buy for her to play with.
why don't they make 19 of the characters female and 5 male then?
ReplyDeleteHow is selecting characters from a generic game of guessing a person, in any way sexist? It does not promote any advantage to those being chosen from. It's not called "Guess the doctor?". If it was called "Guess the criminal?" would women still be moaning about lack of inclusion?
ReplyDeletePerhaps it's peoples own perceptions that needs adjustment here, not the board games artwork.
Clearly some here look for evidence of sexism to explain away their own failings in life.
Look for it, and you'll eventually find something that can be twisted to fit your personal agenda...
Good answer back in return of this issue with real arguments and telling everything about that.
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This is good they at least tried to get at her level of understanding!
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ReplyDeleteYou can place a good roasting roof-rack inside the this baking can obviously if transfering for the particular piping
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